Between Friends

During the 1960s Civil Rights movement, the vast majority of white churches stood idly by as black pastors like Martin Luther King, Jr. and Ralph Abernathy challenged America to live up to the “equal rights for all” promised by its constitution.  

Central to our mission at What if the Church, is the catalyzation of relationships among pastors in the greater Kansas City metropolitan area. When those relationships develop, new doors are opened for pastors to reach out for help, for prayer and for important conversations.  

The following are excerpts are taken from a long conversation between What if the Church members and church leaders, Pastors John Brooks (Macedonia Baptist Church) and Randy Frazee (Westside Family Church). Editor’s note:  Some responses have been edited to condense the responses.  

The men who have actively developed their friendship over the course of the past two years met as brothers in Christ with a focus on understanding and healing. What we don’t repair, we will repeat.  

Real and Raw 

Frazee: Right after the death of George Floyd, you texted me, “Please pray for me. Have you seen that very disturbing video?  Another black man killed by the police.” Can you tell me the emotion that you were feeling when you asked me to pray for you?” 

Brooks: Rage. Anger…My soul is in turmoil (over this). It’s like man, I know the only thing that can change a heart is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And crossing with that of course is justice—lock him up and throw away the key…we’re going to save him when he gets to prison! (laughter) But my thing is, I don’t want to feel that way towards whites, and you’re my friend. So, I’m like “Randy, please pray for me!” … My thing was anger and rage that the church needs to stand up to this.  

My soul is in turmoil (over this). It’s like man, I know the only thing that can change a heart is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Truth About Police  

Frazee: The black community and Macedonia Baptist Church is not saying all police officers are bad, or that you are against law and order… 

Brooks:  Absolutely. I don’t think any black pastor I know would say “the police are horrible.”  Maybe some of these young rebel blacks would say that, but that’s not the vast majority of people. Because, let me tell you something, when those people protesting “kill the police, kill the police,” when their house gets robbed, when something happens to their child, and they get into a wreck?  Who they calling?  The white police. So, they’re not against the police. At Macedonia, we embrace the police, we love the police. It’s just like a lot of other things, we just don’t like what the system has allowed for police to do. Some police officers, not all.  

History 

Frazee: “Let’s talk about the history of racism because I think that a lot of younger evangelicals have believed historically, that the conservative evangelical church was there at the rise of the Civil Rights Movements with Martin Luther King Jr. Is that true or false?” 

 Brooks: Absolutely false. …Matter of fact the evangelical church were the ones who were telling Martin [Luther King Jr.] he was wrong. It was the evangelical church, and NOT ALL of them, but the vast majority was saying ‘that’s not the Gospel.’ …The only thing I’ve seen in terms of the white church helping Martin, was the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Middle class wealthy white Christian women helped smuggle blacks around in their cars. But that was not a church movement…  They did it secretly so their husbands wouldn’t beat them up.  

Matter of fact the evangelical church were the ones who were telling Martin [Luther King Jr.] he was wrong. It was the evangelical church, and NOT ALL of them, but the vast majority was saying ‘that’s not the Gospel.’

Make America Great Again 

Frazee:  When I say a phrase, which I kinda like it, but I know you’re going to react differently to it…Make America Great Again…  

Brooks: Code word for “let’s go back and put them in slavery,” metaphorically. Make America great again. When was America great?  When we didn’t have nothing. When we were entertaining. When we couldn’t stay in the same hotels. When we weren’t the head coaches, the lawyers and doctors. …That term means “We are in charge, and they are subservient. We are going to make America what it was.” If America has a tainted past, historically, why would anyone say “let’s make America great again,” when we would acknowledge that racism has been a great divider in our nation…so when you state this to the black and brown brothers, we’re saying “When was America ever great?”   

Frazee: When I hear it I think of how we were founded on Judeo-Christian values. I see a lot of great things about it, but if we are ever going to come to terms with this racial divide—which Jesus is not happy about—we’re gonna have to have this conversation and listen. So what do you hear when you hear Make America Great Again?  

Brooks: …I [think] about growing up in the 80s, loving the National Football League and being told by my high school football coach I can never be a quarterback. “You have to be a skilled position.” …I look at a lot of the great television shows and blacks were always subservient…You guys were always above us… 

Frazee: Does it mean you don’t like America?  

Brooks: I love America!  I’m very patriotic. I’ve been all over the world with missions and there’s no other place I want to live than America. But I’m saying the constitution—if it says I have a right for equality, then give me what’s mine…  Let’s make America live up to what it is supposed to be. 

What the White Church is Missing 

Frazee: There’s something that [the white church is] missing. If you were talking to our congregation and you had nothing to hold back, what is it that we’re missing?   

Brooks: I think what they’re missing is the fact that they’re living in white privilege and don’t even know it. Like you said, you grew up and this is the America that you saw this was your experience, but everybody did not have that experience. So, the pervasive mentality is “Okay that was a thousand years ago. Get over it! Stop making excuses and get out there, there’s opportunity for everyone.” 

… Let’s talk about income equality, how we are viewed when we are walking down the street, the opportunity given to us, the chances of being killed by a policeman. When people say, “you can do it,” I’m saying, “you have never lived in this dark pigmentation to understand.” You name any institution [newspapers, schools, colleges, sports teams, congress] you guys own them, and we built them with the labor. So institutionally, the game is set up for white people. So, they’re missing that—you can’t just undo 400 years and say let’s be equal. 

I think what they’re missing is the fact that they’re living in white privilege and don’t even know it. Like you said, you grew up and this is the America that you saw this was your experience, but everybody did not have that experience.

What the Black Church is Missing 

Frazee: What are black people missing in all of this?  

Brooks: I believe we are getting it wrong when we are looking too much at social programs to change things. We are the salt and light of the world. Only Christ can change lives. … George Floyd died a horrible death, and it’s wrong…but if he was not saved and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, it doesn’t mean he’s going to go to heaven just because a racist white police officer did that. So therefore, in the struggle, we miss that sometimes. …We’ve got to have better schools, we’ve got to have people in high positions. And I agree, but at the end of the day, if they aren’t saved…this Gospel thing is the bigger deal. 

Relationships Matter 

Frazee: A lot of people are posting stuff on social media and I don’t think it’s enough… I think it’s going to be Jesus and his church, and it’s going to be relationships like this, John. 

Brooks: I know it. And it’s gonna be the [white churches] of the world, who are empowered and are doing a great job to challenge their parishioners. Because I’m telling you these people who in power aren’t coming to my church. They are coming to your church. You guys have the power to challenge them with the Gospel...Like Mordecai told Esther, “For such a time of this. But if you don’t help us, God will send us help somewhere else.” I’m just saying we need your help, but if you don’t help us, oh it’s going to get done!  God has a way, if he can part the Red Sea, he can get us through this.  

I’m just saying we need your help, but if you don’t help us, oh it’s going to get done!  God has a way, if he can part the Red Sea, he can get us through this.